Substituting sourdough starter

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Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 19th, 2016, 2:28 pm

I have some interesting sounding gluten free bread recipes I'd love to try, but they all have sourdough in them. I've tried but I just don't get on with proper sourdough (please don't try to convince me otherwise!) - I don't like the taste and it's too much of a faff, plus I just don't make this bread often enough to justify it. And after my last batch made my house smell like i was brewing moonshine, I've been rather put off.

So I'm theorising that I can use a mixture of flour, water and dried yeast instead of the sourdough. Is that right? If so what quantities for 100g of sourdough starter?
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby aero280 » November 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

I make my white bread with 500g white bread flour. 350 to 400g water and a 7g sachet of dried yeast. Prove till doubled in size. Knock back. Let it rise again to a little bit less than twice the size. Oven at around 240˚C (Regulo 8/9) for 20 mins. Then around half heat 190˚C (Regulo 5) for 40-45 mins.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 19th, 2016, 2:56 pm

Mine are gluten free recipes and use lots of different types of flour. I just need to know what to use instead of the 100g of sourdough starter.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby scullion » November 19th, 2016, 4:15 pm

look up about biga and poolish starters - they are ferments made overnight with yeast. they sound like what you're thinking of - although i don't know how they would work with gluten free flours as i have no experience with them. let us know how you get on - i have a couple of celiac friends who would be interested.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby aero280 » November 19th, 2016, 4:36 pm

I don't think that you need anything to replace the sourdough starter. The yeast is enough for the rise.

If it's being baked in a tin, then a wetter mix will be fine. Just add flag ur if it's too wet and soft to handle.

If you are baking on a flat tray, a bit drier is better to avoid it spreading too far.

Bread is very imprecise. You can throwin almost anything. I sometimes do a load with all the odds and ends of flour, oats, nuts, or whatever I have that needs using up. Semolina, rye, spelt... anything. Just reckon on about one sachet of dried yeast to 500 or do grammes of flour. Adjust water to suit.

I do find that nuts seem to absorb water, so a slightly wetter mix for nutty bread may work better.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 19th, 2016, 5:22 pm

Looking at the recipe, I just think there wouldn't be a whole lot of bread left, if I just used yeast instead. There's also not much liquid in the rest of it (considering that GF bread needs more water). I've looked at the sourdough fermentation process in the book and it has a ratio of 4 parts water to 3 parts flour, so I might try just substituting that, plus yeast. I'm hoping to try this one tomorrow, so I'll let you know how it works.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby aero280 » November 20th, 2016, 1:19 am

If you've made the bread before with the sourdough, I would mix the flour, yeast and water to the same consistency.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 7:43 am

I haven't. used sourdough years ago and i'm sure it was wrong. so i've no idea what it should be like!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Suelle » November 20th, 2016, 8:50 am

Does this Dan Lepard recipe, which starts with a sponge, help with quantities and proportions?

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... nk.baking8
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 10:19 am

Not sure Suelle. Thanks though! GF flour works differently to wheat as it absorbs more water. I'm planning on using 85g of water and 65g of gf flour, plus 5g of yeast (or maybe 7g!) I'll see how it turns out. I've made a lot of really bad (blame the recipes) GF bread in the past, so it can't be worse that those!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby earthmaiden » November 20th, 2016, 10:39 am

This doesn't quite answer your original question as I know you already make bread. What is in the various recipes you mention which you would like to add to the basic bread dough (sourdough or otherwise)? Maybe those in the know could help you adapt a T&T yeast recipe.

I expect you are all too familiar with Doves flour (I am quite a fan) but their website has a few recipes for GF breads and baking, I wonder if any of them could be adapted for what you want? They don't seem to have a sourdough. https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/recipes/search-recipes/
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 10:51 am

I've tried all the Doves farm GF bread recipes, but haven't had much success. But the book (River Cottage Gluten free) has so many recipes that have worked brilliantly, I want to try them all! (just not with sourdough!) I'm not too keen on doves farm flour as it turns everything kind of powdery and pastey. The recipes I prefer use a blend of individual flours. It's so hard to get this right and takes a lot of experimenting (which is why, for once, I actually follow a recipe - well almost!) Some flours give good flavour, others give stickiness (to replicate gluten), others give lift, some are good for providing shortness, etc etc. I have at least 15 different types of gluten free flour!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Suelle » November 20th, 2016, 11:02 am

I would look at the River Cottage recipes, and replace the weight of sourdough starter with the same weight of sponge mixture, using the proportions in the Lepard recipe, and the flours which are best for lift and stickiness, saving the flours best for flavour for the second stage. Not sure which stage you'd want to add the extra liquid though - you'd be a better judge of that.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby aero280 » November 20th, 2016, 12:23 pm

You might want to look at a rye bread recipe. Rye flour is quite low in gluten. Most rye breads, add white bread flour to get more gluten in. But there must be some pure rye bread recipes about.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 1:14 pm

Aero, I can't eat rye either. Sad, I love rye bread! I'm not low gluten, I'm no gluten!

I'm going to start now...
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby aero280 » November 20th, 2016, 2:16 pm

I wasn't suggesting you eat rye. It has some gluten. But the proportions between flour, yeast and water might be near the ones you need with your gluten free flour.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 2:27 pm

Oh I see what you mean now. Sorry I got confused!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 20th, 2016, 3:30 pm

It's in the oven now. It certainly has risen quicker and more than any GF bread I've ever made before! Fingers crossed it'll turn out ok!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby suffolk » November 20th, 2016, 3:35 pm

Oooh! Any chance of a picture when it comes out? :D
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Zosherooney » November 20th, 2016, 3:47 pm

And a taste !!!! with butter for me pls. :D
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Suelle » November 21st, 2016, 11:48 am

How did the bread turn out, Hope?
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 21st, 2016, 12:20 pm

It's ok. The good points are that it is cooked through, not stodgy. It isn't too dense either (just a little). But it is a bit too crumbly and the taste is a bit strange. In terms of homemade GF bread, it's probably one of the better loaves I've ever made, but it's competition is poor! One day I will make a good loaf of GF bread, but this is not it. It is at least edible, though!

I've got pictures, just can't find the lead!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Suelle » November 21st, 2016, 2:17 pm

I have two friends who eat gluten-free, and one of them has given up bread altogether - she wouldn't bake her own bread, but she finds even commercial gf bread inedible!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 21st, 2016, 2:37 pm

I keep giving up on it for a while, then I try it again (shop bought, then homemade!) Some is ok, but I've yet to find anything I love!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby dennispc » November 23rd, 2016, 9:20 am

Hope, perhaps the way I make bread may help. In the evening 250g flour in a bowl, mix in 7g dried yeast, add 325g water and mix together. Leave covered on the side overnight. There's your starter, poolish, sponge, whatever. In the morning add spoonful of salt some oil and 250g of flour. Mix and knead (KitchenAid). Tip out, spread to a rectangle, roll and place in tin. Once risen, into oven at 240C, about 40 mins.

For a seeded loaf I add the seeds into the evening mix.

If timings are difficult make the sponge first thing in the morning and do the rest in the evening.

If kneading's a problem. Oil worktop, tip out, oil hands and fold a couple of times. Cover with bowl. 15 minutes later, fold again, and do that twice more.

Maybe adding seeds will help the taste. Black treacle?
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 23rd, 2016, 2:36 pm

THanks Dennis. I've tried that before and I don't like the taste - too yeasty.

Re kneading - the only good thing about gluten-free bread is it doesn't need kneading. There's no gluten to develop!

I'm going to work my way through all the recipes in the book now. (gradually - I've got a freezer full of failed attempts!) If none of those works, I may give up on GF bread, until next time I decide to see if anything's changed!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby suffolk » November 23rd, 2016, 2:56 pm

It's just a thought, but there is this delicious sounding Gluten free tomato bread - I know you couldn't eat it with jam or other sweet stuff, but it would be delicious just with butter etc, and ham or smoked fish sandwiches.
My thought being that the flavour of the tomatoes etc would mask the yeast and any of the other flavours that you don't like.

https://maisoncupcake.com/gf-tomato-loaf/
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby dennispc » November 23rd, 2016, 3:45 pm

Hope wrote: There's no gluten to develop!


Doh! Slaps head.
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 23rd, 2016, 4:12 pm

Oh that sounds nice Suffs. I beat it'd make a good cheese toasty! I usually have my bread with savoury things. Although I have noticed in the photo that it has the line of doughiness along the bottom that I've encountered a lot in my attempts at GF bread!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby suffolk » November 23rd, 2016, 4:46 pm

Slice it off, whizz it in the processor and freeze it to use with some thyme/oregano/parsley and lemon zest as a topping for some gratinéed dish. ;)
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby Hope » November 23rd, 2016, 5:21 pm

Good idea!

ACtually I didn't get that soggy bottom thing in the last loaf I did, simply because I cooked it for an awful lot longer than I thought I needed to, in an attempt to not have the doughy bottom. It worked!
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Re: Substituting sourdough starter

Postby suffolk » November 23rd, 2016, 6:06 pm

If I think a loaf is likely to have a doughy bottom, or if it doesn't sound right when I rap it on the bottom with my knuckle, I take it out of the tin and put it back in the tin upside down and put it back in the oven for 5/7 mins.
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