Why we fell for Clean Eating

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Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Pepper Pig » August 11th, 2017, 10:56 am

Bee Wilson. This is really worth a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... ean-eating
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 11th, 2017, 11:38 am

The Angry Chef is also good on the subject, in fact there's a lot of mutual admiration
http://angry-chef.com

I wasn't sure about Bee Wilson, but having seen her live I really like her

She's right about the anti-expert vibe too, and it's been around a while
Thirty years ago a new age type suggested that I should not make decisions about my cat's medical treatment, because as a professional clinical scientist I would have knowledge that would influence my choices, rather than going on my emotional response to the cat
I've not heard it expressed quite like that since, but it's certainly a factor in some of the nutribollocks, "ancient wisdom"= good; best scientific evidence = plot by big food / big pharma, allegedly
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby suffolk » August 11th, 2017, 11:53 am

There's far too much 'emotional responding' going on in the world at the moment ... anyone would think we don't have brains :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Ratatouille » August 11th, 2017, 12:53 pm

It struck me the other day that even Trip Advisor has got in on the act. One of the first questions is "Does this restaurant cater for vegans?"

If one is troubled by these things, the obvious thing to do is ring the place and ask.

Where has moderation in all things and don't feel guilty about the odd treat philosophy gone?

Genuine allergies seem to be better dealt with in France on the whole, every restaurant is supposed to be able to provide a list of any dish that may contain possibly allergens and what these are. The staff are supposed to provide the lis and know what it contains or if not to which member of staff to provide the information. If they don't then it has to be up to the client to decide for themselves if they should eat there or not.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 11th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Ratatouille wrote:Genuine allergies seem to be better dealt with in France on the whole, every restaurant is supposed to be able to provide a list of any dish that may contain possibly allergens

That is part of EU law. So is in the UK currently too (without wishing to crack open that one!)

But of course it only covers the 12 main allergens. Not good if you have allergies outside of that, though!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 11th, 2017, 2:40 pm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for TripAdvisor to ask as a standard question if each restaurant caters for vegan / vegetarian, as if it is routinely recorded then people can use it as a search criterion.

You are hardly going to phone in advance every restaurant you might eat at during a two week trip, even if you expect them to speak your language (or vice versa). Sensible to check when making a firm booking perhaps.

And the majority of vegans / vegetarians are not so for reasons connected with clean eating, I know Jews and Muslims who are veggie when travelling for simplicity as there aren't that many kosher / halal establishments
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby smitch » August 11th, 2017, 2:44 pm

Ratatouille wrote:It struck me the other day that even Trip Advisor has got in on the act. One of the first questions is "Does this restaurant cater for vegans?"

If one is troubled by these things, the obvious thing to do is ring the place and ask.



If I can't find a menu online for a place I'm considering, I check websites such as trip advisor to see what people have said about catering for veg diets. I don't have time to phone multiple overseas restaurants, let alone the cost of the call. I like to have a list of places planned out- I don't always stick to it if I see a place I like the look of, but eating nice food on holiday is a priority for me. I don't understand how having this on the review could be an issue for someone.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 11th, 2017, 2:55 pm

I agree with SMitch and Sue as well. As a vegetarian (even before having multiple allergies and intolerances), i need to check restaurants before going. It would take ages to ring around first.

Veganism is totally different to clean eating. I've been a vegetarian for nearly 30 years. Vegans have been around for centuries/decades. Clean eating is very new (and doesn't always even mean people are vegan as everyone seems to have their own personal definition of it!)
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby cyprusmoira » August 11th, 2017, 3:43 pm

Interesting article, thanks. There was a letter in the Sunday Times pointing out that Almond Milk has created a monoculture in parts of California, there are acres of Almond trees and nothing else.
Does anyone ever mention that items such as soya, quinoa and olive oil are all imported.

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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 11th, 2017, 3:51 pm

quinoa is grown in the UK. I only ever buy british quinoa. It is available in most supermarkets.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 11th, 2017, 3:53 pm

cyprusmoira wrote:Does anyone ever mention that items such as soya, quinoa and olive oil are all imported.

Very seldom, a blinkered approach that has also been in place for decades

Remember the macrobiotic fad? Brown rice and tamari, all imported but the original idea was that the region in which you live should be able to support your food needs, so no soy in in the UK, or rice, field beans, peas and barley!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 11th, 2017, 3:58 pm

It has been mentioned: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... uth-quinoa

But then people buy imported food all the time, not just clean eaters!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby earthmaiden » August 11th, 2017, 4:44 pm

It does seem as though many have taken 'clean eating' rather further than necessary. I like this sentence in the article; "perhaps best seen as a dysfunctional response to a still more dysfunctional food supply: a dream of purity in a toxic world" (of course, it goes with huge amounts of exercise, decluttering etc as well, which are all things that make people feel good but can be taken too far).

I do think in general, people in the western world became lazy sluggards from the 60's onwards as copious amounts of processed foods were pushed their way and gargantuan meals and less natural exercise became the norm. It is true that even now, the medical profession has not really jumped onto the bandwagon to encourage sensible eating and it is not surprising that the quack element jumped in instead. When the wholefood movement of the 70's took hold it was so refreshing, but very heavy on pulses and unrefined grains and flour. Clean eating should be the new wholefood movement with fresh, lighter and delicious ways of treating natural foods now that we are in a society of fusion foods and flavours. It has tipped the scale too far the other way and will eventually find a balance.

One of the things about our multi-cultural society and the new foods and flavours we have been introduced to, is an influx of foods imported from around the world which go against our care about food miles but which have added so much to our culinary experience. The next thing, hopefully, will be to try to produce some of the new ingredients ourselves when climate allows. As mentioned with quinoa, this is starting to happen. I think extreme clean eating will pass and we will hopefully be left with something rather good. As for information on the internet, that is the way forward and is expected. Most people, especially the young, will pass over a place if they can't find any information about it these days.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Ratatouille » August 12th, 2017, 9:19 am

I think it is a matter of courtesy to any restaurant to book ahead if at all possible and when you do make clear any food requirements. And re-iterate these before you order. If you have such requirements it really is you responsibility as well as the restaurants.

Most of you know about my coconut problem so usually I just scan the menu and avoid anything which might contain said ingredient but if in doubt then you must ask. Some of you might remeber I nearly came unstuck in a posh place in St Malo at Christmas when the dessert was sitting on what was called a sable but it also contained coconut though this was not mentioned at all and I didn't think to ask. So the fault was really on both sides.

I know a couple of chefs who are perfectly willing to provide for any special diets, as long as they are given notice but are absolutely fed up with customers who start interogating the waiting staff in an agressive way and sending them off to "ask chef" in the midst of a busy service.

As I say, eating out is a two way thing and both diner and restaurant have obligations.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 12th, 2017, 10:20 am

anyway, what's allergies got to do with clean eating?
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 12th, 2017, 10:26 am

Hope wrote:anyway, what's allergies got to do with clean eating?
Agreed, though there's an odd interaction where the clean eaters think they must avoid gluten for example although it's not bad for you unless you are allergic or intolerant
Think of all those people who happily eat seitan!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 12th, 2017, 10:28 am

well exactly. And it's those that think they need to avoid it who give those of us who really do need to avoid it a bad name. (although it has meant there are far more GF products, which are better and cheaper because the market has grown, so I thank them for that!)
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby smitch » August 12th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Ratatouille wrote:I think it is a matter of courtesy to any restaurant to book ahead if at all possible and when you do make clear any food requirements. And re-iterate these before you order. If you have such requirements it really is you responsibility as well as the restaurants.

Most of you know about my coconut problem so usually I just scan the menu and avoid anything which might contain said ingredient but if in doubt then you must ask. Some of you might remeber I nearly came unstuck in a posh place in St Malo at Christmas when the dessert was sitting on what was called a sable but it also contained coconut though this was not mentioned at all and I didn't think to ask. So the fault was really on both sides.

I know a couple of chefs who are perfectly willing to provide for any special diets, as long as they are given notice but are absolutely fed up with customers who start interogating the waiting staff in an agressive way and sending them off to "ask chef" in the midst of a busy service.

As I say, eating out is a two way thing and both diner and restaurant have obligations.


I rarely book unless the website etc indicate it is required. I also choose places where the veggie option is indicated on the menu. I've only had to ask a waiter to find out from the kitchen which the veggie dishes were once and that was in a posh place. I still fail to see why Trip Advisor mentioning vegan options is such a problem. If somewhere isn't willing to cater for me on a normal menu (I'm not fully vegan but eat vegan 90% of the time) then I won't eat there. Calling ahead seems to result in bland and unimaginative vegan dishes if the posts I've seen on vegan pages are anything to go by. I'd rather eat somewhere that was willing to put the effort in and have a suitable option on the menu.

I have asked for the allergen menu in some places (mustard allergy) but that is one of the common allergens that must be stated on the menu by law.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 12th, 2017, 1:25 pm

I think Ratatouille is thinking of going to her local restaurants for a meal out, or somewhere for a special occasion, where there is clearly A Chef in charge

But there are so many more restaurants and so many more people eating out these days I really don't think you are expected to book except for places that are both upmarket and popular, or for a big group, a special celebration, if time is of the essence such as pre-theatre, or to get a special offer; the whole eating out culture has changed since Mr and Mrs Rats lived here and is still rapidly evolving. I do tend to book when meeting friends, London is huge and often we are travelling quite long distances to meet up at the chosen venue, but it often proves unnecessary

Clean eaters probably don't eat much in any restaurant I frequent! But every restaurant I go to these days has an u imaginative veggie option, fortunately my usual vegetarian companion actually like aubergines, pasta, mushrooms and goat's cheese!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Ratatouille » August 12th, 2017, 1:26 pm

As they say Smitch "I know where you are coming from" but just think that the first question to be asked about any restaurant should be "Is the food good?"

I am rather out of touch with the restaurant scene in the UK these days but I know my vegetarian D_I_L always looks at menus on-line before booking.

I'm afraid France is rather a long way beyond the curve in many of these matters but allergy advice should be, but isn't always, available. It is highly unlikely that a vegetarian option, let alone anything else would show up on an on-line menu. However I stick by my belief that it is always best to book ahead - we have seen so many folk turned away at the better, and by that I don't mean expensive, local restaurants. Would you, for example not book ahead if, like us, you often go with a friend who is a wheelchair user?
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby smitch » August 12th, 2017, 1:45 pm

Ratatouille wrote:As they say Smitch "I know where you are coming from" but just think that the first question to be asked about any restaurant should be "Is the food good?"

I am rather out of touch with the restaurant scene in the UK these days but I know my vegetarian D_I_L always looks at menus on-line before booking.

I'm afraid France is rather a long way beyond the curve in many of these matters but allergy advice should be, but isn't always, available. It is highly unlikely that a vegetarian option, let alone anything else would show up on an on-line menu. However I stick by my belief that it is always best to book ahead - we have seen so many folk turned away at the better, and by that I don't mean expensive, local restaurants. Would you, for example not book ahead if, like us, you often go with a friend who is a wheelchair user?


Of course I want to know if the food is good, that is one of the reasons I'd read reviews in the first place. Having said that, if there was nothing on the menu for me then I wouldn't eat there. Fine dining places are not really our scene, but the veggie options are usually poor or non existent. We tend to avoid pubs and 'traditional' restaurants as the veggie option is usually goats cheese of some kind, veggie lasagna or risotto. I only have issues eating out when I'm with my parents, who favour simple pub meals.

As I said, I'd try to find out if booking ahead was advisable but here in Manchester it usually isn't necessary. Some places don't take bookings unless for a large group anyway. Obviously if I had a specific requirement I'd mention it to the restaurant but access for wheelchairs isn't something I need to consider.

If an online menu didn't show a veggie option I wouldn't eat there. when I'm on holiday, I rarely know what time I'll want to eat or what we'll be doing that day so we're happy to take our chances. We generally go to cities on our holidays so we have plenty of choice.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby MagicMarmite » August 12th, 2017, 8:37 pm

Is the food good?
Does this restaurant cater for vegans?

I've read reviews of places I've eaten in that state the food is good, when I think it's overpriced crap.
The second question has a yes or no answer, I really don't see the comparison.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby dennispc » August 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm

Thanks PP for the link, most useful as you will see.

First, I've a friend whose vegan – always he rings the restaurant to check they understand what constitutes a vegan dish.

The two of us disagree regularly mainly because, in arguing for the health benefits of veganism, he gets information from a group of American doctors who claim to use scientific evidence. I disagree with his sources.

OH and I we were away at the weekend, giving me more time to read all the article plus its link to the Sugar Conspiracy and more. There I leant about John Yudkin, a British professor of nutrition who had sounded the alarm on sugar back in 1972, in a book called Pure, White, and Deadly, which includes this sentence,

“If only a small fraction of what we know about the effects of sugar were to be revealed in relation to any other material used as a food additive, that material would promptly be banned.”

Sadly Yudkin's work was marginalised by some in the scientific community, the leading critic was Ancel Keys, who believed saturated fats and cholestrol were the baddies.

At some point I came across this study:

“Conclusion: The low-carbohydrate diet was more effective for weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor reduction than the low-fat diet. Restricting carbohydrate may be an option for persons seeking to lose weight and reduce cardiovascular risk factors.”

Taken from:

http://annals.org/aim/article/1900694/e ... ized-trial

If different scientists come to different conclusions, who am I to know who is right?

In the mean time I'll just carry on eating what's kept me upright and breathing far longer than I ever expected. :D
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 14th, 2017, 4:14 pm

I think many people now think Yudkin was a little OTT, and he was not good at persuading rather than instructing people to change their ways as I remember it. I was a New Scientist reading biochemistry undergraduate at the time, so very much on my radar.

As I have said before, the trouble with nutrition is that it's really too big a subject, the sort of clinical trials we do for drugs and other interventions can't possibly work, we eat every day of our lives, and there are so many variables, timing of eating, climate, terroir, vegan, vegetarian, liking salt, not liking salt, wine with meals, water with meals, tea or coffee, McDonalds or KFC.... the size of cohort you need for each part of the study is enormous

I personally have more faith in the huge lifestyle studies, like Framingham, American Nurses, UK Biobank, but they aren't perfect. The populations are largely self-selected (probably not very rock and roll in one direction, and probably not many clean eaters in the other as they won't engage with Big Science). But the biggest drawback is that you have to spend decades carefully and expensively collecting data and waiting for the beggars to die off, as the strongest correlations will most likely be made retrospectively! :rolleyes:

By which time the next generation will have been weaned differently......
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Ratatouille » August 14th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Did anyone listen to the Food Programme today???
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 14th, 2017, 7:27 pm

Not yet, I save it for ironing, and I know Anthony Warner is on it
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Grasshopper » August 14th, 2017, 7:39 pm

The trouble with 'experts', is that they can't seen to agree with each other.
Almond 'milk' is :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout: :sprout:

:sprout:
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby miss mouse » August 14th, 2017, 9:19 pm

StokeySue wrote:I think many people now think Yudkin was a little OTT, and he was not good at persuading rather than instructing people to change their ways as I remember it. I was a New Scientist reading biochemistry undergraduate at the time, so very much on my radar.


I disagree. Yudkin was publishing way before 1972. Instead, big food and big pharma won the war of the whole 'fat' misrepresentation selling us carcinogenic transfats. 'Flora' anyone? Fortunately for my household they were too expensive for us. After the helicobacter pylori debacle any trust in Big Pharma has long since been lost.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 14th, 2017, 11:15 pm

Yes, agree Pure White and Deadly was quite a late work in his career, but it was the one aimed at the general public, and not at academics, and due to my own age was certainly the first work of his I read, and I read the discussions in the Sunday papers and New Scientist too, it made quite a stir

I don't really see what Flora has to do with 'Big Pharma', generally I'm more of a believer in the cock-up than the conspiracy theory of life. The link between trans fats and helicobacter escapes me, but I only spent 10 years researching peptic ulcer treatments (and we were very excited about H pylori, or campylobacter as we called it in the eighties)

I remember one of my colleagues being treated for H pylori in ca 93, it proved in her case very hard to do (3rd or 4th time lucky I think). A well constructed conspiracy would surely have tried to double dip and sell combination therapy with H2 blockers and antibiotics rather than just H2s?
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Rocky » August 15th, 2017, 1:06 am

Sue - I am catching up as just got internet back with a week off but I wanted to say I always appreciate your measured very scientific posts about things like this. I feel I have learned (learnt?!) much over the years.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby miss mouse » August 15th, 2017, 6:37 am

The likes of Flora, hydrogenated spreads, were urged on the public as a 'healthier' alternative to butter, this was a very big public health message, the concerns about trans-fats were already widespread and yet ignored. Hmm. Fortunately they tasted horrible and were too expensive for me. Cholesterol testing was also becoming popular. The evils of animal fats were being strongly exaggerated while there were many concerted efforts to discredit Judkin's work.

The Australian researchers isolated H pylori at about the same time as omeprazole got its patent and their work was squashed for30 years until the patent ran out on Omeprazole, funny that.

Big food and Big Pharma follow the money.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 15th, 2017, 7:02 am

There are so many mixed messages out there. My parents still believe the egg thing. Doctors are still pushing the low-fat thing. I remember in the 90s searching out low-fat food because everything said it was healthy (but of course it was packed with sugar and non-food chemicals). Health advice seems to change every 5 minutes. So of course we're confused!

TBH I've not read the original article for fear of getting annoyed at it as I often do at the backlash against these things. I'm not a clean eater, but I lean more towards that than I do to junk food!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 15th, 2017, 8:04 am

miss mouse wrote: The likes of Flora, hydrogenated spreads, were urged on the public as a 'healthier' alternative to butter, this was a very big public health message, the concerns about trans-fats were already widespread and yet ignored. Hmm. Fortunately they tasted horrible and were too expensive for me. Cholesterol testing was also becoming popular. The evils of animal fats were being strongly exaggerated while there were many concerted efforts to discredit Judkin's work.

I think most people who are interested know about trans fat was merely pointing out that it had nothing to do with "Big Pharma" (which isn't really a thing, it's just an epithet). The idea that "Big Food" even exists seems to me unrealistic, look at the EU subsidy chaos.

miss mouse wrote:The Australian researchers isolated H pylori at about the same time as omeprazole got its patent and their work was squashed for30 years until the patent ran out on Omeprazole, funny that.

Big food and Big Pharma follow the money.

Marshall and Warren published about H. pylori in 1982, and were awarded the Nobel Prize in 2005. Like I said I don't believe in conspiracy theories, you credit the pharmaceutical industry with far more efficiency than it can muster (the problem with "Big Pharma" from the inside is that it is to big and badly managed to have coherence or direction). Once Marshall and Warren had published, any gastroenterologist could and did try to treat ulcer with antibiotics, and publish their results, and the NHS was treating T. that way in 93. The medical journals (Lancet, BNMJ) I read at the time were full of suggested antibiotic regimes, I don't think any thing published in the Lancet counts as quashed.

Hope wrote:TBH I've not read the original article for fear of getting annoyed at it as I often do at the backlash against these things. I'm not a clean eater, but I lean more towards that than I do to junk food!

I think you should credit Bee with more finesse, it's not just blogger knocking, it's far more about how ideas about healthy eating spread in ripples
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 15th, 2017, 9:14 am

Started reading it, but it's too long to read on screen. And I'm tired. And I got bored! Nothing new in what I read, tbh!

But oh, the alkaline thing, I had someone trying to push that on my as a cure for my condition which she said was obviously auto-immune and due to chronic inflamation or something. When I told actually it's genetic and my inflamation markers are usually normal she suddenly vanished. Honestly as someone who has a chronic, uncureable condition (and doesn't exactly keep it quiet!) I have a lot of this rubbish thrown at me a lot. Fortunately these days I'm level headed enough to just laugh it off.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby PatsyMFagan » August 15th, 2017, 9:20 am

Rocky wrote:Sue - I am catching up as just got internet back with a week off but I wanted to say I always appreciate your measured very scientific posts about things like this. I feel I have learned (learnt?!) much over the years.


I second that .. :tu:
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby patpoyntz » August 15th, 2017, 12:03 pm

PatsyMFagan wrote:
Rocky wrote:Sue - I am catching up as just got internet back with a week off but I wanted to say I always appreciate your measured very scientific posts about things like this. I feel I have learned (learnt?!) much over the years.


I second that .. :tu:


Me too!
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 15th, 2017, 2:45 pm

The alkaline thing is really odd, the Angry Chef went back and it is based on Victorian medical research, which was cutting edge in its day (the same guy did some really good stuff that stands) but has been repeatedly disproved
However the original paper is still cited by the extreme brigade.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 15th, 2017, 3:09 pm

StokeySue wrote:The alkaline thing is really odd, the Angry Chef went back and it is based on Victorian medical research, which was cutting edge in its day (the same guy did some really good stuff that stands) but has been repeatedly disproved
However the original paper is still cited by the extreme brigade.

They don't seem to stop, just like people still believe autism is caused by the MMR. Apparently it's a conspiracy that it's been disproved. :rolleyes:
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Riocaz » August 17th, 2017, 12:05 pm

Hope wrote:Apparently it's a conspiracy that it's been disproved. :rolleyes:


Despite the original doctor admitting faking his findings.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Zosherooney » August 17th, 2017, 4:34 pm

Pinch of Salt comes to mind here....
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 17th, 2017, 4:38 pm

Riocaz wrote:Despite the original doctor admitting faking his findings.

Exactly, but the thing taken on a life of it's own
There was a report of people refusing to have dogs vaccinated for rabies (in an area with rabies) because vaccines are "harmful"
I'd say leave 'em to it - but in a rabid area you need every dog to be vaccinated, or all dogs, cats and children are at risk.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby dennispc » August 22nd, 2017, 7:57 am

Posted this on my sourdough thread,

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -questions

fits in here too.
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby miss mouse » August 22nd, 2017, 8:16 am

That's interesting. From the article,

" Given this, cheap meat pumped full of microbe-killing antibiotics, says Spector, is something you want to avoid. "

North American pork is given antibiotics, it makes them gain weight faster. Could it have an effect on our microbes perhaps?
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby PatsyMFagan » August 22nd, 2017, 12:02 pm

What a really interesting and informative, balanced article :tu: ...

on another, (but loosely linked) subject ... this article, like lots of other Guardian articles that others post on here, asks for £5 per month contribution ... Do any of you do this ?
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 22nd, 2017, 12:11 pm

Hmm, interesting but a bit of a mish mash, isn't it? Veering between serious science and rabble rousing terminology such as "Frankenstein bread".

The use of antibiotics in farming in the EU is restricted anyway (possibly not enough) because of the risk of antibiotic resistance, which would seem to be as good a reason for the statement "cheap meat pumped full of microbe-killing antibiotics, says Spector, is something you want to avoid. It might also make you think twice about taking a course of antibiotics you don’t really need" as is taking care of you gut flora. You shouldn't of course take any medication you "don't really need"; it turns the risk/benefit ratio against you and wastes healthcare resources

The statement
" Likewise, some preservatives, additives and artificial sweeteners might cause havoc. In evolutionary terms, our gut bacteria have never seen these chemicals. As they don’t know how to digest such chemicals, they can cause metabolic disturbances"
I think that makes a few odd assumptions
First of course a novel chemical is novel to all species, not just the gut flora. And we can be exposed to naturally occurring food chemicals we haven't evolved with, as we exploit new food resources and move around more. Second if they can't digest it, surely it's 50/50 (for the sake of argument, undoubtedly different numbers in practice) whether it literally passes by the microbes, unremarked, or it has an effect on them, accepting of course that preservatives are intended to prevent microbial growth, so definitely interesting to see what they do to the gut flora in practice, but not reasonable Ito make an assumption IMO.

I also agree that I'm not aware of anyone looking at the effect of antibiotics in food on the gut flora, and it might be interesting, but as I said there is a plethora if reasons for taking antibiotics out of the food chain, so I'd really like us let us just to get on with it.

None of this is straightforward :(
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby PatsyMFagan » August 22nd, 2017, 12:43 pm

That's the difference between me reading that article and you reading it Sue ... you are the professional and can tell the wheat from the chaff whilst I read it and think how interesting it is ...;)
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby StokeySue » August 22nd, 2017, 12:50 pm

I can be wrong!
But I maintain high level of scepticism
I think there's a load of interesting stuff in there, but not always well thought through
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby PatsyMFagan » August 22nd, 2017, 5:28 pm

At least we can rely on you to have the intelligent interpretation ;)
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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Pepper Pig » August 24th, 2017, 12:36 pm

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Re: Why we fell for Clean Eating

Postby Hope » August 24th, 2017, 2:05 pm

PP - It's interesting that you posted that. Now that I'm beginning to understand fodmaps a bit better, I think that what I thought was gluten intolerance may actually be a problem with high fodmap gluten-containing foods. All the foods that I've had problems with (GI problems) are high fodmap. Trouble is of course, when I went to my GP 7 or so years ago and again 3 years ago about my problem with eating wheat/gluten they just told me not to eat it (after I was tested for coeliacs). If they'd actually referred me to a specialist I would have known this years ago! One day soon I'm going to pluck up the courage to try spelt sourdough bread and see what my tummy thinks of that. (because it is low fodmap)
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