Work Fridges - what is reasonable?

[earthmaiden]

"Veganism is more than not eating meat, it’s a philosophy, a belief in living in a certain way."

But so is the way various religions, or in fact, the way every individual chooses to live. Already in the 21st century the rights of those who want to live in a variety of ways which used to seem unusual have been highlighted. Preferences have moved from being either 'normal' or not to something far more complex, hence discussions on work fridges, shop changing rooms and much more. Satisfying everyone communally is quite difficult. I wonder if we'll just live in smaller communities of those who share similar philosophies or if a time will come when we're just grateful to be alive. Most of us are willing to hang on to what we feel morally right for a very long time when the chips are down.

[dennispc]

Agree. For centuries this country has been able to cope with groups who want to live differently from the mainstream. Not a problem. Perhaps I'm getting old, but perhaps modern media now highlights the differences and so they become an 'issue'.

[earthmaiden]

I think we have far more groups who no longer want to, nor feel the need to, hide who or what they are. Our communities are so much more openly diverse than 60 years ago. Even those who conformed to the 'norm' didn't always feel comfortable doing so. Now that they (and of course I mean all of us) have the freedom to be themselves and air their beliefs openly it means everyone needs to start considering how it's going to work! Interesting times.

[scullion]

if our cats wanted to go vegan i would have no problem with that as long as they checked that they were getting all the right nutrients. up until they show any interest in doing that they are getting the cheapest lidl dry food from me and getting their own takeaways.
i think it's silly to even consider inflicting an inappropriate diet on an animal - look at what that did for cattle and sheep!

[StokeySue]

The trouble is that people get so polarised and demand their preferences as if it were a human right

Just this week someone organised a small supper club in aid of charity, with vegetarian options, And received hate Tweets and some nasty trolling for daring not to have a vegan option, apparently a right at any event where tickets are sold to the public. I am bemused - the full, detailed, menu was available before paying for a ticket, surely vegans could choose to give this one a miss, an slip the charity a fiver if they specially wanted to support it. Just as I read menus before booking a restaurant, and rule out quite a few

But it's not just food - people think they need special treatment for everything

[scullion]

i for one am really pleased for the rise in vegan food on the market. for over fifty years i've been fobbed off with a mushroom omelet or just the veg side dishes as the go to excuse for a vegetarian meal. now there is far more of a choice and some that even think of the protein content of a meal that doesn't include goats cheese.
apart from the health benefits i suppose my choice to be vegetarian could also be described as 'ethical' - i couldn't kill for meat so i don't see that someone else should kill it for me - but i am perfectly able to steal honey from bees, milk a cow/goat and steal the milk from their young and gather eggs (unfertilised).

i don't see that it's my right to have a restaurant that caters for my choice. it's great when they do and especially when it's done with thought but i, too, would look at a menu to see if there was anything i would want to eat and choose a different venue if there wasn't.

[suffolk]

[scullion]

i quite often wonder how vegans regard the exploitation of their own gut bacteria...

[dennispc]

[miss mouse]

[suffolk]

We were wondering the other day .... and not wanting to upset anyone, but ... what does a vegan do if they get a tapeworm?

[miss mouse]

[suffolk]

People who watch Dinnerladies and Vicar of Dibley are gentle people with kind hearts ... just ripe for exploitation.

[miss mouse]

[karadekoolaid]

[suffolk]

I think it’s not just about wanting to be special ... I think it also reveals a ‘need’ to control the behaviour of others ...

[scullion]

[scullion]

[suffolk]

I’m pretty sure you can get tapeworms from nibbling grubby fingernails after gardening in soil containing tapeworm eggs ... sure I read that somewhere ... I nibbled my fingernails well into my teens and that bit of info stuck with me

Edited to add: There are other routes ... apparently

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 1d9bee7dc3

[miss mouse]

Mmm. I think tapeworm is freely available.

What about body lice? I haven't had them, they might be an endangered species, I have had head lice, hair conditioner and tooth combing works for that, some say strawberry is best, no idea, it was very bonding the head lousy person combing mine and I hers. Oh dear, are we mass murderers? I think our best score was well over 70.

[Amber]

[Badger's mate]

[earthmaiden]

[quote "Amber"]
My hairdresser has started to use disposable/recyclable paper towels [/quote]

Really? Is this due to being more environmentally friendly or cheaper? Hairdressers must get through a lot of washing/drier loads and soap. The towels might be ok if they are made from recycled material. Interesting anyway (and can't feel so nice so I hope the sustainability aspect really adds up and you can feel virtuous!).

[Seatallan]

[miss mouse]

Head lice adore clean hair BTW.

Oh dear, bed bugs, grim. And cat fleas, the cat had been dead for weeks (yes the body had been given a suitable disposal, not left around) and the awful fleas came leaping out from who knows where, very annoying. Ants seem to be attempting to invade again.

[suffolk]

Ringworm ... an acquaintance caught it from a gatepost where infected cattle had rubbed ... he put his hand on the post then rubbed his hand on the back of his neck

[Seatallan]

Impetigo anyone? Always remember having it at school. It spread like wildfire....

[miss mouse]

I don't think I have had either of those, maybe impetigo, staph aureus isn't it? Another 'Only dirty peple get it'.

[dennispc]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned coronavirus - may have come from wild animals.

[northleedsbhoy]

[dennispc]

[Herbidacious]

Now I think this has in in danger of descending into a bit of vegan bashing/ridiculing?! They can deal with tapeworms as they see fit. I once heard a tale (back in the 80s) of a teenager whose dentists refused to give her an anaesthetic when she had a filling after she told him she was a supporter of animal rights, as clearly having it (it having been tested on animals) would go against her beliefs. We can strive for something, but that doesn't mean we can't sometimes put self interest first. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, even if ideally it might be. i.e. occasional inconsistences don’t necessarily undermine the general principle. In my opinion, at least…

The reusable tissues comment was something I thought I had already alluded to. An advert I saw on Facebook - I am always getting ones for trendy, new, often environmentally friendly (allegedly) products - such as Who Gives a Crap loo paper. Someone was trying to sell reusable tissues - which you could wash up to 350 (?!) times (or some such). You can imagine the comments on this one. The person who'd 'created' them in the end back peddled from his brand new product claims and said that he was reintroducing handkerchiefs to a generation unfamiliar with them. In other words a load of either disingenuous or genuinely stupid b***ocks. Like, it seems, a lot of things that are said these days. (er hum. Members of the current cabinet.)

I have never had headlice or worms, but I gather it’s normal these days. (When I was young I remember one person getting ‘nits’ and being made to stay at home until they’d gone. Perhaps this was before there was a readily available treatment? It was ostracising and humiliating though. Everyone dreaded getting them for this reason. But an example of self isolating that worked quite well, because getting them was uncommon...)
The NHS says tapeworms are rare in the uk. Isn’t it threadworms that children get? ( I know. Irrelevant to the point.)

[earthmaiden]

Nits were rife when my children were at infants/junior school in the late 70s/early 80s. It seemed there were a couple of families who weren't very good at dealing with them. I had never come across them before that. GD's nursery & school don't seem to have had any outbreaks - thank goodness.

[suffolk]

As I said when I raised the question ... it was a genuine philosophical query not intending to upset anyone. If being a vegan is an ethical choice (claimed by some to be similar to a religion) that made me wonder about how a vegan addressed the issue of parasites. After all, I know of folk whose religion forbids blood transfusions and I know of one person who died rather than have a transfusion. Would some vegans go that far? It is a genuine query in my mind.
It seems that there appears to be a shift in our view of ourselves which distances humans from a place as part of nature and seems to claim some sort of moral superiority eg It’s ok for cats to eat mice and lions to eat zebras but not for us to eat other creatures ... it’s sort of an inverted version of the superiority in the Old Testament.

[Seatallan]

I do also think there's a 'fashion' element to it. I have friends who have been vegan or vegetarian for years and have just quietly got on with it but there's a bit of a 'militant vegan' thing going on at present. I rather suspect that some of the people of that persuasion will probably not be vegans in a few years time because the world (and the in thing) will have moved on.

[Badger's mate]

I believe it was threadworms that I got in the 60s. Nothing since, until I picked up a tick in Africa a few years ago. At school the nit-nurse used to come round with a comb and purple liquid, although I wasn't aware of a problem there. In more recent times, a friend did the same job, but she was called the Louse Liaison Officer.

My nan used to regale me with tales of bed bugs, how she used to take the iron bedstead into the yard, douse it in paraffin and set it alight. All the bed linen was boiled in a copper of course, but the little so and sos would presumably also be in the mattress and relief was temporary.

I wonder if we were in that post war window when DDT and the like were freely available and it depressed parasite populations for a while.

[suffolk]

[Herbidacious]

I suspect you are right, Seatallan, although I think a lot of the new vegans are environmental ones, so maybe the added bit of self interest will make it stick for longer? (Or is that overly cycnical.) Silly beards have been around for a rather a long time too...

Vegetarianism was briefly fashionable in the early 90s after CJD made the headlines. That didn't really last. I think people also drift away from it as they get older and have children.

Regarding gut bacteria, I did have a vegan friend at school who would only eat unlevened bread... that seemed quite extreme to me. Pretty sure yeast is not sentient, but maybe I am wrong.

[karadekoolaid]

[StokeySue]

I got ringworm and fungal infection of the toenail from my cat. We both had the same treatment (griseofulvin) - I picked up the infection very easily as I had some superficial scarring on my foot and the fungus would lurk in the crevices

I eventualLy managed to stop getting it by using a herbal balm, it did nothing for an established infection, but seemed enough to stop it taking hold, the base was very emollient and also helped to smooth the scar

[PatsyMFagan]

My (then) hubby brought home Scabies from his ship when we lived in Hong Kong I was the only one in the family who reacted; both he and daughter escaped. The most embarrassing part of the diagnosis was having to stand, almost stripped bare, in front of the dishiest of Naval doctors, so he could see the pattern of infection (inside wrists, elbows and groin )

[Prettykiwicrazy]

[scullion]

i think that dennispc was referring to the bacteria rather than vegans and my comment was not intended to mock. i will ask some vegan friends, tomorrow, about gut bacteria,
i've been vegetarian for well over fifty years and a large portion of our diet is vegan. most of my friends and family are vegetarian or vegan and i have to say that vegans have taken over from omnivores as the ones who question my choice of diet. an interesting turn-around!

[dennispc]

Thanks scullion, again guessing, I think they will say our gut bacteria is a Stimulus - Response mechanism, it has no choice in the matter, butI'll be interested in their reply.

Only one of the vegans I know is evangelical about their views, centred as they are on animal rights. Once was chatting to a neighbour, lived nearby for about twenty years, turns out they are vegan. Only came about because we were chatting about our local shops.

None of the vegans I know are pale and pasty, though the fittest of them (aged 80, did 100 press ups in a minute) seems to be naturally pale. Don’t remember us ever suggesting anyone changes their diet, apart from refusing to take grandkids to MacDonalds! Though evangelical friend certainly tries to change mine.

[Herbidacious]

Recent converts, especially young people, to anything may have a tendency to evangelism. Maybe some of you will have encountered the Christian Union lot at university. I'd have them trying to convert me even though, at that point in my life, I went to church twice a week (but not to their church/meetings.) It's just the rabidness of youth.

I have never been an evangelical vegetarian (or indeed evangelical anything.) But over the years I have frequently (decreasing frequency as time passes, attitudes change and I become an older person) had uncalled for adverse comments from people, sometimes quite aggressive when my vegetarianism has cropped up in conversation. Comments have ranged from how my diet must be poor - not getting enough protein et. To jubilantly pointing out that I am wearing leather shoes - they've caught me out! to arguments about why it's good to eat meat - for the environment, animal welfare - the old 'well these cows wouldn't exist if we didn't eat meat etc argument, as expressed by our big boss at work the other week. Maybe some of these points and arguments are valid ones, or at least deserve discussion, but the point is that they have been thrown in my face merely because it comes out in conversation that I am a vegetarian (my ethical motivation often presupposed (correctly) in the past rather than stated, I imagine.) Not because I am trying to talk about it, certainly not because I am evangelizing. It's tiresome. What I eat does not really affect any individual I ever talk to (apart from being a very slight pain if they think they need to feed me) so why make a big deal about it if I am not doing so?
My theory is that diets that are adopted for ethical reasons make people who don't subscribe to them feel either judged or challenged and that puts them on the defensive which is often expressed as an offensive. Although maybe there is more to it than that. Maybe less.

What I am saying here is a general point about my experience over the years, and does not refer to anything said in this conversation.

Scully, yes I feel a bit judged by vegans now. It’s ironic, having taken all this flack from omnivores over the years, now I am not good enough! I am not going to go on the defensive though.

[scullion]

my experience in the past (and now the present) mirrors yours - it seems like 'getting it' from both ends!

[StokeySue]

I have no problem with people being vegan, or even trying to (politely) encourage their acquaintances to join them, where they have taken up veganusm for ethical reasons. I’ve never understood why many conventional omnivores are so anti-vegetarian, I’ve heard people much younger than me with plenty of experience of people form different backgrounds moan about vegetarians choosing to be awkward, and been surprised

What does worry me is the aggression of the more extreme proponents and the disinformation they spread
Some vegans will, for example, tell people who are ill that this is because they eat dairy. They will also make claims about farming and sustainability that are based on what they want to believe, not the science or the economics or any other facts

Now those are very much the minority, and I don’t meet them every day, but because they are all over the social media and they shout loudly their message does become established as “fact” among those interested in veganism, especially younger people. I suppose that’s what you call an “influencer

[Herbidacious]

There seem to be a lot of people, generally, who uncritically believe what they hear, and don't bother to do even the most cursory research using sources that are not biased. Probably not malicious or manipulative, for the most part, but rather just, or mostly, intellectual indolence. There have always been, and always will be, people like this. The internet ought to help alleviate this - increased access to information etc. But it seems to make it worse - increased access to disinformation, half truth and outright lies.
We really want to do a book at work that's about critically assessing information - understanding and detecting 'fake news', biased information, manipulative material - but we can't find a title. You have to start with a title to get a project going. I think this could be a valuable book for children and young adults.

Another component, though, of the inclination to make sweeping claims is perhaps a tendancy to see things in black and white, and all or nothing. I have noticed this in some of my twenty-something collegues. It might be an age thing. I suspect I was a bit like that at their age.

[Seatallan]

[dennispc]

A thought. Aren't my gut bacteria exploiting me? Not the other way round?