Bread Dough

[PatsyMFagan]

[Mamta]

I made a seed bread today. I was meant to make dough only in my bread maker, then take out the lump and then bake my bread in the oven. Pressed the bread programme by mistake instead! Next time then

[dennispc]

scullion, the first lump came from a yeasted dough, the second from a sourdough. Didn’t add any yeast.

My ‘normal’ (Andrew Whitley’s) starter doesn’t involve wasting anything.

Can’t see how adding yeast makes a sourdough, which uses wild yeasts. Or can it? Though if it tastes right that's all that matters.

I'm fascinated by your partner's dough in the sun. How does that happen?

Patsy, 100g of starter, 5oog white flour, 280g water plus salt works. More water if wholemeal, but that’s using AW’s starter.

[scullion]

I use all of what I save from the previous mix and add flour and water (and salt) to get the right consistency and quantity. I don’t measure it, I just go for the right ‘feel’ - more flour and water just mean that it’s a longer prove.
I let it prove a bit and take the next starter lump from the dough before I let it prove again or bung it in the oven.
The ‘starter lump’ has had no further packet yeast added but it will have been picking up wild yeasts in the same way that a conventional sourdough starter will. It now smells just like the sourdough starters i’ve made in the past.

My partner cooks the dough in a solar cooker, basically a rand tube, when there’s an adequate amount of sun. It’s usually quite crusty as the tube doesn’t get right up to conventional oven temp so has to stay in a little longer- and the loaves have a smaller crumb to crust ratio as they have to be smaller to fit in the tube - but it’s still edible!
If you google solar cooking you’ll find some lively conversations on a couple of forums/facebook groups, if you’re interested.

[dennispc]

Thanks scullion, I've never tried baking bread by 'feel', I'll keep going with my lump and have a go sometime.

My reference to waste in terms of a starter was about the method that involves throwing portions of starter away as it progresses. Now I follow AW which doesn't involve that.

Solar Cooking. Oh Wow. Yes, that was fun following a few links. However, our back garden faces north so I'll just read about it. Most of the front gardens here have no fences and there's a tradition that anything left on the lawn may be recycled by the neighbours.

[aero280]

I gave this a try last week, saving a lump of dough in a plastic container. A couple of days later I used it to make a loaf. No extra yeast and it was fine. The bread was similar to my normal bake. I did it late at night and proved it in the morning, so I didn't look too closely at the starter.

Today I went back to make another loaf. When I went back this morning to use the starter,it had been resting for twice as long, four days, in the cool dark pantry, as I started to tip it out, I noticed that the top surface looked a very "slimy grey". It smelled OK, but I haven't used it. Would you think it was OK?

Here's a picture I took an hour ago. I've left it out on the counter and the grey seems to be disappearing into the rest of the starter. I have no experience of this sort of baking, so I'm looking for some advice.

[dennispc]

aero280. I’m guessing. Normal sourdough starters frequently get a greyish/brown liquid called hooch. I wonder if that is something similar, some of the wild yeasts have exhausted themselves and died.

I posted my first old dough loaf on the, ‘what have you baked today’ thread. Because I don’t bake bread very often I put my lump in the freezer. It’s worked fine. I’m sure scullion will know.

[scullion]

hmm, i've not had 'slimy grey' in that sort of time frame. i think i'd be disinclined to use it - saying that, if it smelled ok i might still chance it.
was the plastic box airtight? when i've left some of the dough for the next loaf it has been in a clip top jar but without the rubber gasket to allow it to breath a little, and just on the kitchen counter.

i've just thought, it may just be the yeast - i make kombucha and shortly after i started, last year, i had a batch where there was a greyish looking bit on the scoby. i did a load of googling and found that it was ok, just some of the yeasts in the scoby getting a bit upity - it's fine now.
maybe it was the same sort of thing going on with the lump of dough.

[aero280]

The box is "almost airtight". It was a plastic container from Costco that I bought some dates in. It was washed and dried. The lid is a tight fit, but I put a pinhole in the top to stop it exploding. I still have the dough in the box and it isn't anything like as grey. I'll have a look and a smell in a couple of days when I need to make the next loaf.

[scullion]

are you using a bit from the same 'starter' every time or a chunk from the proving dough that you've used all the starter in?

[aero280]

It's a chunk from the proving dough that I put all of the starter in.

I've just gone out to have a look at it and, apart from the initial bit of disturbance when I photographed it, it's been undisturbed on the shelf in the pantry. Cool and fairly dark. The grey top has disappeared and it looks uniformly fawn as a wholemeal dough would. The beery smell has reduced and it's more of a smell like brandy!

[aero280]

I made the bread last night and left it to prove overnight. It was in a cold pantry on a cold night and didn't rise a lot. I knocked it back a 8.00am this morning and put it in the baking tin. It took all day to rise. I baked it this evening and it's now cool enough to cut. The texture is fine, but it tastes very odd. There's a bitter taste in the background. So we won't have any more. Disappointing.

[scullion]

just start again - at least there's less waste than with doing the conventional starter.

[Zosherooney]

I have a yeast question....?

I have 2 dried yeasts, Doves quick and Allisons dried active. Do dried yeasts 'go off? i.e stop working? We tried to make a spelt loaf recently with the Doves and it did not rise at all - just a lump of uprisen dough. We used the bread maker. Looked at the packet of yeast afterwards and the date was April 17....

[suffolk]

Yes .... I find dried yeast really runs out of oomph quite quickly ...it the one thing in the cupboard that I ditch and replace on a regular basis.

[aero280]

Yes, I had a tub of Allinson's dried yeast which I forgot about. It didn't do anything.

[scullion]

it also depends on where you keep it. it lasts a lot longer kept in the fridge.

[Zosherooney]

Thanks bakers, It will go on the shopping list.....

[aero280]

New loaf done this afternoon from scratch. It's fine.

A lump of dough has been saved in a jar and put in the fridge.

[Rainbow]

[Zosherooney]

I'll take that on board Rainbow, saves chucking it away

[suffolk]

Ditto

[Badger's mate]

Same here. I buy dried yeast in sachets as larger quantities go off before they're used. A sachet contains more than a teaspoon, the amount I use per loaf. I've noticed that a part sachet might well be less active if it has been opened a couple of weeks, for example if we come back from holiday. Larger packs become much less active and virtually useless after a few weeks. I will try keeping a larger pack in the freezer. Thanks for the tip.

[Rainbow]

Glad you all found that a helpful tip
Hope it works for you!!

[Mamta]

Interesting idea, to keep the yeast in freezer, I will try this. I go through phases when I don't make any bread at all and the yeast goes useless. The last year has been bad for bread making/cooking in general, due to intermittent health issues, hopefully this one will be better
Happy 2019 all

[aero280]

I had another go at using the old dough as a starter. This time I kept it in a sealed jar in the fridge. It seems to be working!

First time around the first use was fine, but the second use went off. This time the second use is fine and some more is back in the jar for a third use!

[dennispc]

Made another old dough loaf today, the third one.

Yesterday 1pm, 150g of old dough from freezer, into covered oiled bowl.

7.30pm, added 500gms white bread flour, 325gms tap water, heaped teaspoon of salt and some olive oil. Hand mixed in bowl. Left covered overnight.

Today 7.30, knocked back, did a couple of folds, removed 150gms of dough, straight into freezer. Shaped and placed in loaf tin.

Oven set for bread warming. Left for three and half hours, oven 250C for 40 minutes. Lovely for lunch time sandwiches though only slight hint of sourdough. That suits OH.

[PatsyMFagan]

Just what I wanted Dennis , an idiot guide I keep saying I am going to try this, but never seem to get a round tuit. Today might be the day. This cold weather seems to be calling for some baking

[aero280]

Today will be another loaf using the old dough in the fridge. It will be the third iteration. Hopefully it will all go well.

I have to go out into the cold and buy some white bread flour. I went to Costco to get another 16Kg bag of Marriage's flour, but there was none in stock. Costco seem to be missing a few things that I regularly buy, and the fruit section was very sparse. I hope they aren't in trouble, they're my nearest supermarket!!

[earthmaiden]

Our local social media reports empty shelves in the shops after one day of snow .

[dennispc]

Failure of 'Just in time' more probably, lorries not getting through.

[PatsyMFagan]

[aero280]

Those look nice Pat.

The third iteration of the dough starter is out of the oven and I have eaten some. It does taste more like sourdough than the last loaf. It hasn't gone off. So, onto the next time! I think I put in in the oven a bit early because we needed bread! It could have been allowed to rise a bit more, I think.

The only thing I'm finding a problem is the time it takes to prove. The first prove in the bowl in the pantry is no problem done overnight, but then the raise in the tin in the morning can take until late afternoon, which is difficult. Maybe this time of year the second rise should be the overnight one...

[dennispc]

Thank Patsy for your kind words. Glad to be of help.

[dennispc]

Adding to the chat on dried yeast, the sachets are 7g, just right for a loaf but not for some sweet doughs so I buy it loose in those small circular tins. Keep it in the fridge, keeps fine. Sainsbury's sell fresh yeast, which I divide into 10gs, use grease proof paper to make little sachets and keep in freezer. Because of that, sourdoughs, and not eating so much bread recently it must be a year since using the dried yeast. Made a loaf on Friday and it was fine.

For interest I treat fresh yeast the same as dried, just crumble it into the flour, add water and mix.

aero280, overnight prove .... now there's a good idea.

[aero280]

I've edited my previous post. The first prove was done overnight in the pantry - not the oven!!

[aero280]

Fourth iteration is out, cooled and tasted. It's definitely a sourdough now!

I did the first prove overnight again, but the second rise in the tin was very slow, so I boosted it a bit by giving it 40 mins in the oven on around 60 degrees C.

All these loaves have been made with wholemeal flour and the taste is pretty much what you get from a German "Graubrot". I might try a handful of rye in it next time.

As the starter seems to be OK in the fridge, I may do another run with just white flour and see how it goes!!

[aero280]

I’ve been busy doing things around the house, but the sourdough is still going well.

The bread got quite sour and I had doubts about continuing, but recently the really sour edge has diminished and it’s fine. I bake a loaf every three days or so. Keeping the starter in the fridge in a sealed jar in between. The current mix is rising quicker than it did, maybe the warmer weather? But more likely a change in the yeast, because the kitchen temp is pretty constant.

I vary between overnight proving with second rise in the morning and a bake at lunchtime, and an early morning mix ending up with a bake in the evening,

Once I have all the kitchen equipment back from the store, I may try it in the Le Creuset casserole as with the no-knead bread.

[PatsyMFagan]

[dennispc]

Patsy, the experts say it should be warm. I use it straight from the tap, so would be cold.

[PatsyMFagan]

[aero280]

I use cold water. The sourdough takes so long to rise, I don't think that the temperature matters.

Because of the slow rise, I haven't been knocking the dough back for a second rise. I don't think there's enough energy left.

I made the dough yesterday evening and it went straight into the fridge. I took it out this morning at around 8.30. It's now nearly 4.00pm and it's been standing in the kitchen since then and it hasn't quite risen enough to put in the oven yet.

[Badger's mate]

Over the years I've managed to kill several perfectly good sourdough starters. Something I heard at a fermented foods workshop last year made me wonder if the chlorine in our tap water was causing a problem. Consequently I now use cooled boiled tap water in sourdoughs. It might have had nothing to do with it, but my starters are rampant these days.

[dennispc]

At one time Dan Lepard recommended bottled water for that reason.

[aero280]

That's something I've wondered. Our local water seems to be heavily chlorinated in the evenings. That's when I make my dough. I keep the starter in the fridge. It seems to just sit there for over a day doing nothing. Then it doubles in size, but goes back down.

[miss mouse]

[Rainbow]

[aero280]

[PatsyMFagan]

I've looked in my flour bin to discover there is only half the quantity of WHITE flour ... can I top this up with WHOLEMEAL ?

[dennispc]

Yup. My wholemeal loaf varies between 100g or 200 of white and the rest wholemeal. Some do 50/50 or, in your case Patsy, what’s available.